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Forum: Toronto Maple Leafs9 hours ago
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>RipNasty</b></div><div>I think they all will figure it out eventually. Matthews and Willy already have. If both were healthy, that series could have been different. Those two under a coach who can adapt to the playoffs will find another level. Marner I am less sure about but I think he will at some point. Likely not with the Leafs.

If you can get value for Marner trade him. JT is riding out his deal and likely resigning at a major discount and he will be loved again. No one would be complaining about him if he made 4 million less than he does. After next season if he signed for 2 years at 5, it would be a bargain. It's one more year, we knew this could be a possibility. He's not trash.</div></div>

I don't know about Matthews. Of all the playoff games Matthews has played, we haven't seen him be dominant like other top players often. I'm not sure about Willy either because the goal scoring has been there more consistently than the others, his lack of attention to detail the past few years stands out like a sore thumb.

Shanahan and Treliving talked about playoff goals and how generally they are ugly and messy. These core players have never struck me as players that have the will to get those ugly and messy goals.
Forum: Toronto Maple Leafs10 hours ago
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>palhal</b></div><div>The three stooges (liars) at the press conference today.
How can Shanahan who has been Leaf president for 10 years.....blame Keefe and others. He's been behind the coaching hires (especially Babcock,) all the GM hirings. He's allowed the Leafs to trade away so many picks, including up to 2026...three drafts away, for what ONE playoff round win. Just shameful on Shanahan's part blaming others as he collects his large cheque....for what.

Trevling another bozo. Last summer he said the Leafs are going to change their defence. Well his one change last summer was signing Klingberg.
Kinda funny how the core four was "criticized" but Trevling signed Nylander to an eight year extension at 11.5m. Now Nylander may be worth it, though I don't think any other team would have offered more
Seems like Nylander got a "hometown premium" which was so prevalent in the Dubas and Shanahan era.

I'll cut Pelley a little slack since he new to his position. But I wouldn't trust Shanahan and Trevling in matters of hockey personnel evaluations.

Leafs will probably be no better in 24/25....but let's a competent GM can spend the cap with the departure Tavares and Marner wisely in the summer of 2025</div></div>

What bothers me about Shanahan is...when Dubas was still here and supposedly wanted to make a big change in the core 4, Shanahan didn't let him but a year later he's maybe ready for a big change to the core 4? Was the last 3-4 years not enough to come to that conclusion?

As for Treliving, I'm cutting him some slack because I feel the GM change happened so late that by the time Treliving took over he was already behind on contract talks with Leafs players and also evaluating and going after players in free agency. In order for Treliving to have had a fair shot at even a decent off season (nevermind a good off season), he needed to be in place by the TDL.

I'm still not convinced that the core guys (Matthews and Nylander) have or will figure out how to adapt to playoff hockey. Marner is the guy of the 3 that has and probably will struggle the most because of how officiating standards change from regular season to playoffs.
Forum: Toronto Maple Leafs22 hours ago
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>aadoyle</b></div><div>Berube will handle these kids and they gonna go cry to Shanahan and hes probs gonna smile and say tough lul

As that guy was also one tough SOB back in the day</div></div>

My fear with Berube is that in St. Louis he had Pietroanglo, who we knew was a number 1 D and had the ability to raise the play of his partner.

There is no Pietroanglo on this team and bringing in Matt Roy and/or Brandon Montour doesn't suddenly mean the team has that now.

The solutions at D are going to be such that Treliving will have to settle for less than number 1 D and bring in a coach who can bring the best out of this team knowing there's no number 1 D solution.

Maybe a Marner trade allows for acquiring a number 1 D, but we'll cross that bridge if we get to it.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsYesterday at 11:17 p.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>NorthernLeafsFan05</b></div><div>I know we all like to hate on Keefe, but I gotta admit that video he put together made me a little sad. Wish him the best of luck in the future! Definitely was time to move on though.</div></div>

<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Saskleaf</b></div><div>Yah for sure, I really liked how he took responsibility for the loss. He didn’t have to do that and it’s more than any of his star players did. All the best Sheldon, good luck in Pittsburg or wherever you end up</div></div>

It was classy of him to take responsibility for the last 4-5 years. I don't hate Keefe, just didn't think was ready for this market and while he should have been let go at least 2 years ago, that's more on the organization and specifically Shanahan.

And yes,he took more responsibility of the failures of this team than the players did. That doesn't sit right with me because what about when the next coach takes over?

When will it be on the players?
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsWed. at 9:53 a.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>aadoyle</b></div><div>I think Roy was basically going with the hotter hand and apparently Lou was not happy

Sorokin is the future and idk if Isles move him. Maybe in a rebuild but as long as Lous there doubtful


If Sorokin was to be dealt my guess Woll or Hildeby + Cowen and a 1st. Why Woll you may ask well if Sorokin is the future no need to keep the kid as we got Hildeby who could get a look sooner. As no doubt Sorokin is rebounding next year





The guy I was eyeing actually is someone who yes had a down season but is someone we know has been good in the past and could be got for cheap

Darcy Kuemper

Guy can play 50 games, won a cup with the AVS 2 years ago and if WSH ret were set (2.95m)

Other guys to explore if we want something else can include Knight, Saros, Gustavsson, and Markstrom

But yea this needs to get sorted out as while Woll has shown flashes of being someone who can start he has also shown injury proneness. Hildeby is just to big of an unknown rn.Woukd though save the #3 spot for him</div></div>

The thing I don't like about Saros is that he's a small goaltender. Compare that to the league average and I kind of think leaning towards the average is a better bet.

Markstrom turned 34 this year so not sure how you feel about that. I'd like someone in their 20's.

Knight is/was in the players assistance program and don't know where he is from a hockey mindset standpoint.

No easy options for sure.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsWed. at 1:23 a.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>aadoyle</b></div><div>I think you need to go invest like the Avs did and while Kuemper was a rental he won a cup

Woll played 25 regular season games and 2.5 playoff games and got hurt both instances

He's injury prone and for a goalie thats a big problem especially at that age and the fact this has been a thing in AHL and NCAA

While goalies be silly geese I think you need to at least look. As this goalie market sucks and I just dont know if we can go with it with these current guys

As Woll cant stay healthy

We dont know what we have in Hildeby

And everyone else is a UFA


Might have to invest in someone like a Saros or Markstrom, Kuempers and say hey we at least tried</div></div>

What would you think of trade involving Sorokin? Apparently Roy is not a fan of him and actually leaned on starting Varlamov over him since Roy took over.

I don't know what a trade would look like but do you think he's someone you would be interested in?
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsTue. at 11:06 p.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>aadoyle</b></div><div>

Think we have learned Woll cant stay healthy and thats a problem as how do we expect him to reach 40 games when in 3 separate leagues he's never done it. Sammy was fine but not the guy to take us to a cup in the current state of this team.

TOR needs to explore going out and getting a legit starter or someone who they can build upon via FA or trade</div></div>

Yeah the goalie problem is real. I'm not even sure I would want to give up alot of value for a goalie because the position is so volatile.

May have to sign one in free agency and also hope Jones wants to come back as well because at this point you almost have to expect Woll to miss games again next season.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsTue. at 10:57 p.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>aadoyle</b></div><div>One thing I remember was when MacKinnon and the Avs lost to VGK in the playoffs 2021 and MacKinnon had one of the best quotes out there

<strong>I'm going into my ninth year next year and I haven't won ****. So, I'm just definitely motivated, and it just sucks losing four (games) in a row to a team</strong>


Where's that from Matthews, Marner, Nylander, etc

Its just oh were close and oh ABC and if this happened or that happened like a ****ing broken record. Or one making a quote going out of context or pouring fuel into the were fine fire and pissing off the fans

Rielly at least says the right things but you can tell also holds things back

Imagine Matthews said what MacKinnon said holy **** things would get interesting</div></div>

And this is what I'm talking about when I say "look at how your peers are self motivating to push their teams to the Stanley Cup"

If Matthews and Marner can take whatever steps to get to the levels MacKinnon mentioned instead of worrying about what media and fans say and think or busy having god complexes at season end media responsibilities, they would be better off.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsTue. at 10:46 p.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Leafsfan98</b></div><div>https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/auston-matthews-stats-vs-tampa-bay-playoffs

https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/nylander-stats-vs-tampa-bay-playoffs

https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/marner-stats-vs-tampa-bay-playoffs

https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask?q=tavares+stats+vs+tampa+bay+2021-22+to+2023-24+playoffs

All 4 did well vs Tampa and elevated their game...</div></div>

I watched the games. The games weren't as rosy as the stats may say they were.

In past playoffs and somewhat even these ones the Leafs were outshooting opponents but most of those shots were perimeter shots and not nearly dangerous enough to force the goalie into making tough saves.

Anyway, we'll see if these players learn anything this offseason because it hasn't really sunk in over the past 8 years.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsTue. at 12:04 p.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Messier99</b></div><div>Larry Murphy might be a better analogy. But he was traded for future considerations and I don't even know who it turned into.

Murphy was brought into Toronto as a 16 to 18 minute offensive defenceman. I forget if it was injury or trades, but he, as an aging defenceman, was asked to log 22+ minutes and as shut-down guy and fans got on him as he was too old to fit that role.
Traded to Detroit, he anchored their PP to 2 cups in 3 years.</div></div>

You know the difference between Murphy in Toronto vs him in Detroit? In Detroit he didn't need to be the guy leading the D core but in Toronto he absolutely had be because the Leafs had nobody better.

It's a case of miscasting a very good player for a role that wasn't for him at his stage in his career.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsTue. at 11:59 a.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Leafsfan98</b></div><div>Willy's making 11.5 now... No more 6.9 mill, his bar has raised, so has Matthews'...

Either they all need to be harped on (bc they all make top 10 NHL money) or we don't...

Truth is, they've all not been the best in the playoffs... I thought they made progress vs Tampa (I think Matthews has like 18 pts in 13 games vs Tampa), that may or may not be the case

But they all need to show up if this team's winning anything</div></div>

I can agree with some of what you said. The part I disagree with is "progress vs Tampa" part. I don't think they progressed but they did get lucky.

The core guys absolutely need elevate their play in the playoffs especially when you see what their peers are doing.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsMon. at 11:45 p.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Saskleaf</b></div><div>Yah but it just gives off this attitude that he’s above everyone else. It’s not the end of the world but it’s a really bad look</div></div>

Totally this!
Look, if the team had won a few rounds, performed well but ran into injuries, the fans would understanding and also Mitch, Willy and Auston would have legendary status just for that...but the dude thinks he's already there.

<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LeafsFanForSomeReason</b></div><div>You're getting way too worked up over one word within a statement.</div></div>

Really? Like the time he was asked about Sammy and made it about himself?

You would think that the organization would have sent this guy to media training101 after the very first set of comments that had him looking like he was full of himself...but who am I kidding...Shanahan is in charge and he doesn't see these as character flaws.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsMon. at 6:32 p.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>RipNasty</b></div><div>Oh I will, when he is the one that made the mistake. But that play is not on him. Rielly and Samsonov shoulder the blame there. Not Marner.

Other things he did definitely deserve scrutiny but certainly not that. It's the same as blaming him for a goal against after a line change when everyone was in good position but mistakes by those players resulted in a goal. The guy wasn't even on the ice.

For the OT winner, had Marner chased pasta, pasta could have back handed it to the point where no one was now defending and the leafs would have been out of position and chasing the play. Who knows what could have happened but in that instance, a dump in from centre to that corner is the defencemans responsibility. Rielly hesitated for a second and changed directions. (Hence why I think he expected the puck to go behind the net). It hits the stanchion and bounces to Pasta who Rielly should have been closer too by then. Samsonov drops to his knees and hugs the post and didn't move until pasta was nearly at the far post.

Samsonov lost focus on that play. He should have stopped it.

It's the picture perfect play as to why he never should have been given the number 1 role. The guy makes saves he has no business making sometimes and that excites people. But then goal 1 and 2 happen. The first goal he was just out of position and the puck went in. If he was square to the shooter it hits him. Woll would have stopped that. Woll would have challenged pasta and either poke checked or slid over in time.

Samsonov I would say cost us more than anyone else apart from Keefe.

And really, anyone expecting high scoring games was ridiculous. Boston doesn't let in much. They defend better than almost every other team. To beat them you have to do exactly what Florida did. Pressure them and force some odd man rushes. Which TO did rarely but look at their goals, most of which were transition plays. Off the cycle they had nothing. But Keefe stuck to that system. Take it up ice, get it into their zone and then maintain possession and cycle until they make a mistake. Well Boston just didn't make any. And their goalie was awesome. Boston didn't make it easy and we Keefe made it easier on them by not adjusting to what they were doing.

As I keep saying, I am not opposed to trading Marner if you get good value. I say this because while it can't be denied he's a world class player, I am not sure he has the mental fortitude to handle TO. So would I trade him? Yes, if I got fair value for him.

If the best we can do is Parayko or some other 2nd pair defenceman who's already 30 years old and signed for another 6 years, then it's stupid to trade him. And you can't let him walk. So if no good trade comes to fruition then you keep him and hope a new coach can employ a better system that provides some offence in the playoffs.</div></div>

Look,you can explain all you want whether Marner had responsibility for Pasta or not but Keefe admitted (I think it was after game 1, not sure) about having Marner out on the ice when Pasta is out there and basically needing Marner to make sure Pasta doesn't get grade A chances.

Thinking of that reminds me how poor a playoff series Marner actually had because Pasta still managed to be a difference maker while our guys couldn't figure it out.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsMon. at 6:23 p.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Leafsfan98</b></div><div>Yeah, because that's what competitive hockey players who want to do anything they can to help their team win on the ice do... This part is stupid as players play through stuff bc they want to win and they believe they provide their team the best chance to win...

I love how you ignored that I mentioned past playoffs, Matthews has been better than Willy and everyone else...</div></div>

LoL... "better than Willy" because that's some kind of bar..

Take all of Matthews performances and need to up them quite a bit because so far, whatever he's done hasn't been enough to push this team to levels that required to win the Stanley Cup.

If we can agree that Matthews is the best player on the team and the bar is "well he was better than Nylander" then yeah this team ain't winning ****.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsMon. at 2:42 p.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>aadoyle</b></div><div>Of the big 4 im giving a pass to Willy but a slight one as man the body language he gave floating in for OT not good. Like watch the Pasta winner. Hustle a bit your not a slow guy lul you skated in the fastest skater comp

Matthews doesnt get a full pass but im not gonna go after him due to health issues. Guy looked sick in the interview. That said game 1,3, and 4 not good enough and should have never played game 7 sorry. Agreed only dominant performance up to standard game 2. Game 1 man was that ugly high stick penalty that leads to a bruin goal


Marner and JT yea not good enough

Tavares had 1 PP goal and 1 5 on 5 point for 11m not good enough. I know he's past his prime but come on

Marner had 1 goal 2 assists, had some moments but again not good enough

Knies had the same goals as both combined and is on an ELC


Berube or whoever comes in first things first should sit them down and go this is what I expect you dont play this way you sit got it</div></div>

Tried to nultiquote but whatever..the next page thing messed it <a href="/users/Leafsfan98" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">@Leafsfan98</a>

Matthews should have just not played if he didn't have the energy to bring the dominant performance we saw in game 2. Probably would have been better off because the rest of players would know they really have to up their game knowing he wouldn't be in the lineup.

You guys don't want to give Willy a pass? Fine with me because aside from scoring goals this year and past years, Willy's attention to defensive details have lacked badly in playoff games.

I did see both of you just ignore all the past playoff performances. As if ONLY THIS YEAR matters. It's whole playoff performances issue I was bringing up, not just a single game.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsMon. at 1:41 p.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
Man..reading some of the stuff here..
I'm kinda shaking my head. Yes coaching was an issue but some of us need to stop making excuses for these players.

These current playoffs injuries were an issue but then what about last year? Or the year before? Or the year before that? My point is that Matthews and Marner in particular haven't been nearly as good as other top players around the league.

Looking at just this series for a second, Matthews had one dominant performance. Not good enough guys..it just really isn't.

Marner was mostly invisible in this series and here's why...he thrives in moments where he has time and space but when the playoffs start the first 2 things teams take away is time and space. So then Marner needs to change his game to meet the adjustments that teams make but the dude doesn't have that toughness and grit..doesn't really hit. So what exactly does he bring in the playoffs? Not much.

I'm leaving Willy out of this because he scores in every playoff series and perhaps has taken a step that the other 2 have not.

We need more and better from the top players on this team. They need to look around at their peers and ask themselves why they haven't had similar performances.
Forum: Toronto Maple LeafsSun. at 9:54 p.m.
Thread: Leafs 2023 2024 Season Discussion Part 7 - Shambles
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>RipNasty</b></div><div>Marner had 9 points in 7 games vs the Bruins back when Babs was the coach. New coach comes in and no one in TO can score.

Our team does what the coach says and it doesn't work.

Keefe is gone.

If you can trade Marner and find value, then I think you can make a strong argument to do so. If it's a trade you lose cleanly, just keep him. JT's money, or most of it will go to the next wave of young guys coming up. Cowan and Minten are going to be really good players along with Knies. The team has good depth, especially if you can resign Domi at 4 or under for 4 years or so.

So fire the coaching staff, get a better replacement. That's the first major step needed. Who knows if it works. I don't believe these guys don't have it in them to win. But the team never scores.</div></div>

I'm taking the whole playoff history into account not just the Keefe ERA or Babcock ERA.

You can only use the coach excuse so much because when Marner and Matthews make as much $$$ there needs to be some self pride there to bring it regardless of what the situation is.