Teams interested in goalies

Thread Starter

Molson beer is meh

Joined: Jan. 2017

Posts: 3,922

Likes: 1,812

Quoting: pretzelcoatl

Devils don't want Primeau. Allen would be a last resort if there's nobody else at the deadline

The market is definitely thin on available "decent" goalies. Other than Allen, Primeau, and Blackwood in SJ. Who else is there? MAF in MIN? Vladar in CGY? Mrazek in CHI?

BruinsWoahWoah liked this.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 12:18 p.m.

#3

BruinsWoahWoah

Joined: Nov. 2022

Posts: 867

Likes: 385

Quoting: Blazingbat11

The market is definitely thin on available "decent" goalies. Other than Allen, Primeau, and Blackwood in SJ. Who else is there? MAF in MIN? Vladar in CGY? Mrazek in CHI?

Very thin - Detroit has three goalies so maybe one of Reimer/Lyon could be moved and I also think Nedeljkovic could be moved from PItt

Blazingbat11 liked this.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 12:50 p.m.

#4

Joined: May 2019

Posts: 41,288

Likes: 18,767

I think potential trade comps for Allen would be

Allen at half-retained: Devan Dubnyk 2020: Dubnyk (50%)/7th for 5th

Allen at full salary: Petr Mrazek 2022: Mrazek/25oa for 38oa

Blazingbat11 liked this.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 1:18 p.m.

#5

jpsnow13

You know nothing JS

Joined: Jan. 2017

Posts: 7,082

Likes: 4,455

Quoting: NHLfan10506

I think potential trade comps for Allen would be

Allen at half-retained: Devan Dubnyk 2020: Dubnyk (50%)/7th for 5th

Allen at full salary: Petr Mrazek 2022: Mrazek/25oa for 38oa

I love comparables,, even if there isnt a lot in Allen's case. Most goalies traded are way younger.

MTL would never do the Mrazek trade and pay to dump him. They don't need the capspace so they could just send a goalie down in the AHL if needed. The worst case scenario, loosing Primeau on waivers, would still be better than giving up a high pick.

IMO Allen's value is a little bit higher than Dubnyk because of the extra season. Absolute best case scenario, maybe up to a 3rd with futures (a lot available to spare) bundled with Allen. That would be KH's magic.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 1:22 p.m.

#6

I Love J Boqvist

Joined: Jan. 2023

Posts: 12,579

Likes: 3,353

Quoting: jpsnow13

I love comparables,, even if there isnt a lot in Allen's case. Most goalies traded are way younger.

MTL would never do the Mrazek trade and pay to dump him. They don't need the capspace so they could just send a goalie down in the AHL if needed. The worst case scenario, loosing Primeau on waivers, would still be better than giving up a high pick.

IMO Allen's value is a little bit higher than Dubnyk because of the extra season. Absolute best case scenario, maybe up to a 3rd with futures bundled with Allen. That would be KH's magic.

Imo the second year is a hindrance more than a helper bc of his age.

If he was 1 year you could get him to a team with deadline cap scaling without retention and get like a 6th. With that extra year he certainly doesn’t have +ve value unretained bc nobody wants to lock in Allen at 4 mill next tear

Dec. 7, 2023 at 1:30 p.m.

#7

Thread Starter

Molson beer is meh

Joined: Jan. 2017

Posts: 3,922

Likes: 1,812

Quoting: dgibb10

Imo the second year is a hindrance more than a helper bc of his age.

If he was 1 year you could get him to a team with deadline cap scaling without retention and get like a 6th. With that extra year he certainly doesn’t have +ve value unretained bc nobody wants to lock in Allen at 4 mill next tear

That really depends on the team trying to acquire him. What you're saying applies for NJD, because they already have goalies in place for next season. Other teams could see the extra year as a bonus. With the salary cap increasing to $87+mil, decent backups for all we know will start demanding $4+mil AAV (I've written on other posts explaining this in more detail). Not to mention this year is looking like a sellers' market for goaltending. If teams don't want to pay the "premium" price for a rental, they pay for what essentially is their goalie for next season as well.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 1:35 p.m.

#8

I Love J Boqvist

Joined: Jan. 2023

Posts: 12,579

Likes: 3,353

Quoting: Blazingbat11

That really depends on the team trying to acquire him. What you're saying applies for NJD, because they already have goalies in place for next season. Other teams could see the extra year as a bonus. With the salary cap increasing to $87+mil, decent backups for all we know will start demanding $4+mil AAV (I've written on other posts explaining this in more detail). Not to mention this year is looking like a sellers' market for goaltending. If teams don't want to pay the "premium" price for a rental, they pay for what essentially is their goalie for next season as well.

I think teams would rather have the flexibility of that cap space and being able to go out in the offseason and find a goalie, then lock it into a 34 year old Jake Allen for next year at a price between 2-4 mill depending on retention

Dec. 7, 2023 at 1:39 p.m.

#9

Joined: May 2019

Posts: 41,288

Likes: 18,767

Quoting: jpsnow13

I love comparables,, even if there isnt a lot in Allen's case. Most goalies traded are way younger.

MTL would never do the Mrazek trade and pay to dump him. They don't need the capspace so they could just send a goalie down in the AHL if needed. The worst case scenario, loosing Primeau on waivers, would still be better than giving up a high pick.

IMO Allen's value is a little bit higher than Dubnyk because of the extra season. Absolute best case scenario, maybe up to a 3rd with futures (a lot available to spare) bundled with Allen. That would be KH's magic.

If they have the flexibility…why not maximize the return by taking a Peterson or Campbell back (and buy them out)? Would be like Scott Darling/James Reimer deal (just a better return due to term).

Dec. 7, 2023 at 1:45 p.m.

#10

Joined: May 2019

Posts: 41,288

Likes: 18,767

Quoting: Blazingbat11

That really depends on the team trying to acquire him. What you're saying applies for NJD, because they already have goalies in place for next season. Other teams could see the extra year as a bonus. With the salary cap increasing to $87+mil, decent backups for all we know will start demanding $4+mil AAV (I've written on other posts explaining this in more detail). Not to mention this year is looking like a sellers' market for goaltending. If teams don't want to pay the "premium" price for a rental, they pay for what essentially is their goalie for next season as well.

Spencer Martin will likely be waived soon. Vladar was rumored to have very low price attached. Allen has experience, but if we need a back-up (say to fill a hole created by an injury), there will be options.

If we make a move in net to *really* improve the position long term, I think it’s a move done in off-season and it’s for a guy just entering his prime (Knight, Swayman, Hart…or whomever etc)

dgibb10 liked this.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 1:47 p.m.

#11

Thread Starter

Molson beer is meh

Joined: Jan. 2017

Posts: 3,922

Likes: 1,812

Quoting: dgibb10

I think teams would rather have the flexibility of that cap space and being able to go out in the offseason and find a goalie, then lock it into a 34 year old Jake Allen for next year at a price between 2-4 mill depending on retention

I should have mentioned the salary retention in my last post, my bad. The point I'm trying to make is that with the cap increasing, goalies of Allen's caliber most likely will be getting $4+mil AAV contracts. So teams might be more inclined to try and acquire Allen at $2ish mil AAV with MTL retaining. So as to avoid the commitment of more money (and term, because UFAs tend to avoid 1 year deals on free agency) this off season.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 1:50 p.m.

#12

Thread Starter

Molson beer is meh

Joined: Jan. 2017

Posts: 3,922

Likes: 1,812

Quoting: NHLfan10506

Spencer Martin will likely be waived soon. Vladar was rumored to have very low price attached. Allen has experience, but if we need a back-up (say to fill a hole created by an injury), there will be options.

If we make a move in net to *really* improve the position long term, I think it’s a move done in off-season and it’s for a guy just entering his prime (Knight, Swayman, Hart…or whomever etc)

Exactly. That's why I agree with dgibb10 that Allen's contract for next year is a detriment for NJD. That doesn't mean it's the same for other teams...

Dec. 7, 2023 at 1:51 p.m.

#13

I Love J Boqvist

Joined: Jan. 2023

Posts: 12,579

Likes: 3,353

Quoting: Blazingbat11

I should have mentioned the salary retention in my last post, my bad. The point I'm trying to make is that with the cap increasing, goalies of Allen's caliber most likely will be getting $4+mil AAV contracts. So teams might be more inclined to try and acquire Allen at $2ish mil AAV with MTL retaining. So as to avoid the commitment of more money (and term, because UFAs tend to avoid 1 year deals on free agency) this off season.

A guy like DeSmith should be freely available in UFA for 2 mill approximately. Why lock yourself into Allen’s contract and run the risk that he stinks it up this year and then you’re stuck with him

Dec. 7, 2023 at 1:56 p.m.

#14

Thread Starter

Molson beer is meh

Joined: Jan. 2017

Posts: 3,922

Likes: 1,812

Quoting: dgibb10

A guy like DeSmith should be freely available in UFA for 2 mill approximately. Why lock yourself into Allen’s contract and run the risk that he stinks it up this year and then you’re stuck with him

Hard disagree that DeSmith would take $2mil. He's essentially making that now. Would easily bet he will make more than Allen's current AAV if he keeps up his current stats. Folks are really sleeping of the fact that GMs will be going on a spending spree this offseason with the cap going up so much for the first time in years.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 2:23 p.m.

#15

jpsnow13

You know nothing JS

Joined: Jan. 2017

Posts: 7,082

Likes: 4,455

Quoting: NHLfan10506

If they have the flexibility…why not maximize the return by taking a Peterson or Campbell back (and buy them out)? Would be like Scott Darling/James Reimer deal (just a better return due to term).

Because EDM still think Campbell can bounce back for some reason.... ugh. 100% agree it would be the best return, even if Allen would have a marginal value compared to the salary dump.

NHLfan10506 liked this.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 2:26 p.m.

#16

Digitalbooya06

Osiecki death stare

Joined: Jun. 2017

Posts: 1,477

Likes: 601

Teams not interested in goalies: Minnesota. We have Gus and Fleury, with Wallstedt trying his best to kick the door in.

RazWild liked this.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 2:35 p.m.

#17

Joined: May 2019

Posts: 41,288

Likes: 18,767

Quoting: Blazingbat11

Exactly. That's why I agree with dgibb10 that Allen's contract for next year is a detriment for NJD. That doesn't mean it's the same for other teams...

Yeah, maybe. But I think if Allen to NJD ever happens...it is done in 2024 off-season (unless we have injury).

If Schmid and Daws develop...who knows if it will be as much of a need by then.

Blazingbat11 liked this.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 2:50 p.m.

#18

Thread Starter

Molson beer is meh

Joined: Jan. 2017

Posts: 3,922

Likes: 1,812

Quoting: Digitalbooya06

Teams not interested in goalies: Minnesota. We have Gus and Fleury, with Wallstedt trying his best to kick the door in.

and yet, even amid Allen's current struggles on a crappier team, he's got better stats then either MAF and Gustavsson... which is why I wrote "if MIN can course correct to compete for a playoff spot" they could be a darkhorse buyer for a goalie. Doesn't need to be a goalie from MTL. Obviously they have a goalie for the future with Wallstedt, but they could also be looking for a vet goalie to replace MAF next year if they think Wallstedt isn't ready.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 3:20 p.m.

#19

pretzelcoatl

n.1 Topias Vilen fan

Joined: Jul. 2021

Posts: 5,989

Likes: 2,613

Quoting: Blazingbat11

The market is definitely thin on available "decent" goalies. Other than Allen, Primeau, and Blackwood in SJ. Who else is there? MAF in MIN? Vladar in CGY? Mrazek in CHI?

Primeau is likely not better than what we have in-house. Gibson and Markstrom are, unfortunately, the most appealing options to me

Blazingbat11 liked this.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 3:35 p.m.

#20

I Love J Boqvist

Joined: Jan. 2023

Posts: 12,579

Likes: 3,353

Quoting: Blazingbat11

Hard disagree that DeSmith would take $2mil. He's essentially making that now. Would easily bet he will make more than Allen's current AAV if he keeps up his current stats. Folks are really sleeping of the fact that GMs will be going on a spending spree this offseason with the cap going up so much for the first time in years.

Desmith got 1.8 on his last contract. In the 3 seasons before signing that he had 82 games at a 0.914 sv%
In the 2 seasons on that contract he's had a 0.904

Hard to imagine he gets much more this time around

Dec. 7, 2023 at 5:50 p.m.

#21

RazWild

Joined: Jun. 2020

Posts: 4,478

Likes: 3,178

Edited Dec. 7, 2023 at 6:44 p.m.

Quoting: Blazingbat11

and yet, even amid Allen's current struggles on a crappier team, he's got better stats then either MAF and Gustavsson... which is why I wrote "if MIN can course correct to compete for a playoff spot" they could be a darkhorse buyer for a goalie. Doesn't need to be a goalie from MTL. Obviously they have a goalie for the future with Wallstedt, but they could also be looking for a vet goalie to replace MAF next year if they think Wallstedt isn't ready.

Combined goalie sv% when Evason was fired: .868

Current goalie sv% under Hynes through 4 games: .955

Goaltending while not great, was never the primary issue for Minnesota. It was always the defense in front of it, or rather the lack there of. It's been night and day since Hynes took over. Defense has been playing well and the goalies are no longer being hung out to dry.

In particular, Gustavsson has looked much more like the vezina caliber goalie from last year and Fleury looked really good too in his lone start.

In short, goaltending isn't an issue. They're almost certainly not moving Gustavsson who's only 25 and was a top 5 goalie last year, and Fleury has a NMC that he's not waiving.

Neither goalie is getting moved. Fleury's gone after this season regardless and Wallstedt is ABSOLUTELY taking his spot next year. Wallstedt is READY, he's the best goalie in the AHL this year. There's no reason to let him stay down there another season.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 6:31 p.m.

#22

ricochetii

Go Habs Go

Joined: Mar. 2017

Posts: 10,667

Likes: 4,092

As far as UFA goaltenders being a better solution than Allen next season, most are looking for term.
Allen's 1 year at $2-4M could be more appealing than a roughly $3M x3 commitment, especially with a lot of similar signings not turning out so well in recent years.

Teams are reluctant to pay for young with potential and you can remove most contenders from that market anyway.
Elite-ish starters are rarely available and have a high price tag as UFAs.
The majority of the market of available goaltenders are career backups and bubble NHLers.
The "cream" of the UFA crop are those who have been successful starters or tandems and are only moving on because their current team has too many options and/or not enough room to keep them.

You can expect to pay around $3M for even an average backup or you can gamble on the bargain bin.

Blazingbat11 liked this.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 6:55 p.m.

#23

I Love J Boqvist

Joined: Jan. 2023

Posts: 12,579

Likes: 3,353

Quoting: pretzelcoatl

Primeau is likely not better than what we have in-house. Gibson and Markstrom are, unfortunately, the most appealing options to me

Those are gross contracts long term unless you get significant retention.

Blazingbat11 liked this.

Dec. 7, 2023 at 6:56 p.m.

#24

Thread Starter

Molson beer is meh

Joined: Jan. 2017

Posts: 3,922

Likes: 1,812

Quoting: ricochetii

As far as UFA goaltenders being a better solution than Allen next season, most are looking for term.
Allen's 1 year at $2-4M could be more appealing than a roughly $3M x3 commitment, especially with a lot of similar signings not turning out so well in recent years.

Teams are reluctant to pay for young with potential and you can remove most contenders from that market anyway.
Elite-ish starters are rarely available and have a high price tag as UFAs.
The majority of the market of available goaltenders are career backups and bubble NHLers.
The "cream" of the UFA crop are those who have been successful starters or tandems and are only moving on because their current team has too many options and/or not enough room to keep them.

You can expect to pay around $3M for even an average backup or you can gamble on the bargain bin.

exactly. 100% agree.

I should probably add Seattle and Buffalo to the list of teams. Bruce Garrioch reported not too long ago that Seattle reached out to MTL about Allen and Primeau and BUF has inquired about Allen.

https://x.com/SunGarrioch/status/1732478567269699709?s=20

A bit odd that an OTT reporter puts out claims regarding other teams, but he's been a reputable source for OTT (he was to first to scoop the sens being in on Debrincat I believe). Something to keep an eye on.
I'm going to make another post about it lol

Dec. 7, 2023 at 7:03 p.m.

#25