if they wanted to improve their foward core, they don't have to trade makar. same as if the leafs wants to improve their D they don't need to trade Matthews.

either team would still be good if they traded for the other players. But since the needs are different, they might not be better after. but still very very good.

Yeah, but you said that Mackinnon and Makar are more valuable to the Avs than Matthews was to the leafs which isn't true

no, i said mack and makar is more valuable to the avs than matthews to the avs. maybe there was some miscommunication.

Hughes literally was better than Matthews last year.

Matthews will cost 21.6 mill more over the next 5 years, potentially may not even be better (Hughes is better than matthews was at this age), and then doesn't have any more control in the last 2 years where prime jack hughes will STILL cost 8 million out of a likely 100+ million dollar cap

It’s not that’s just your homerism shining through. Makar is on a different plane than Matthews and honestly it’s not close. You talk about Matthews playing more minutes, Makar leads the league in TOI, is over a ppg dman, who just happens to have won as many con smythe’s as matthews has won series.

Matthews was way better defensively last year and played on 1 wrist... Now that Matthews plays PK, he might start winning Selkes...


Matthews is way better than Hughes rn so the extra 4 mill is worth it

It's not... You can't tell me with a straight face that a defensive core of Teows, Girad, Manson, Byram, McDermid with a top 6 of: Matthews, Mackinnon, Rantanen, Nichuskin and Lekhonen with guys like Colton and Johnson in the bottom 6 isn't a better roster than what the Avs have now...

Their defensive analytics were quite similar last year, but okay.

Matthews being put on PK doesn't make him any better unless he's a high quality PKer. I don't give credit to guys for just being out there on the PK.

BTW that 5.25 extra mill is the difference between getting John Klingberg in UFA, and getting dougie hamilton in UFA.

Hughes' 39 more giveaways to takeaway ration compared to Matthews, way less blocked shots, his almost 20% lower face-off percentage says otherwise...

And Matthews has been on for 0 PP goals against thus far might suggest he's pretty good at PK

Understand that, I'm happy with Klingberg's production minus the puck over the stick thing yesterday

makar is unobtainable

Hughes carries the puck on his stick more than any other player in the league besides mcdavid.

Takeaways and Giveaways are fairly meaningless, poorly tracked stats.

4 game sample size on the PK.

Blocked shots are a tiny sample size of plays, actual chance prevention is much more meaningful.

Faceoffs aren't all that meaningful either (again shown by the chances given up).

And? What about on a per game ratio?

A 39 differential is a very significant

You said "I won't credit anyone playing PK unless they are playing at an elite level"... I would say not being scored on the PP in 4 games is pretty good

Face-offs are a defensive stat, are they not?

The 39 differential is pretty meaningless. Jack Hughes constantly has the puck on his stick, more than anyone else in the league. That leads to more turnovers.

a 4 game sample size.

Faceoffs are a very minor part of defense. They represent the tiniest fraction of play.

You can't put defense into basic counting stats, and that's what you fail to understand.

Yeah, when you have Matthews playing 9 less games, Hughes should have more time with the puck... But you refuse to compare the 2 on a per game basis... And I don't think you understand the importance of take aways and giveaways...

of elite PK play...

You don't understand the importance of puck possession then...

You have yet to show stats that indicate that Hughes is better than Matthews... and cite your sources

Last year Matthews was in the 50th %ile in terms of preventing scoring chances against.

Hughes was in the 61st %ile

Matthews WAS an elite defender, for 1 year, in 21-22. He didn't do that before or after.

The devils got 58% of chances 5v5 with hughes on the ice, the leafs 57% with matthews on the ice.

Giveaways aren't a particularly relevant stat. All it says is who carries the puck most.

According to the xGA model? Source? Not factoring in puck possession time in offensive zone?

Again, source? And does 6v5 count? And that doesn't factor things like quality of teammates or quality of opponents or Ozone starts etc...

Giveaways are a very important stats... It counts how many time you give the puck up... And last time I checked, giving the puck up is bad

No, it's 5v5.

Giveaways are very meaningless. It's a measure of the guys who skate with the puck the most and playmake for their teammates. If you constantly have the puck on your stick, and are constantly passing it to guys in scoring areas (where defenders are), that leads to turnovers. It also leads to substaintially more chances. Jack Hughes leads the league in end-to-end rushes by a MASSIVE margin

The top 20 in giveaways:
Pasta, Malkin, Drai, Panarin, Karlsson, Kucherov, MARNER (hmm i'm sure you'll say he's an elite defender), Hughes, Marchand, Mcdavid, Zegras, Barzal, Crosby, Zib, Robo, Meier, Necas, Trocheck, Aho, Keller.

That truly is some terrible company to be in.

Giveaways and takeaways are also poorly tracked stats heavily impacted by the home ice stat counters

You saw 1 thing that I asked and ran with it out of 10 questions... ok

For a defesive stat... it 100% is, all those players are average or below average defenders... And as for Marner, it's obvious he's not a great defender... There's a reason why Keefe tried Marner on JT's line last year and they immediately struggled whereas Willy all of a sudden became a defensive beast...

Giveaways to takeaway ratios is one of the more underrated stats in the league and it's very important

It's really not. Changes of possession happen all the time.

When Jack Hughes is on the ice the devils constantly have the puck, and jack hughes specifically CONSTANTLY has the puck.

Because the puck is on his stick entering the zone, entering the slot, or into high scoring areas via passes more than ANYONE ELSE, that means there is countless more oppurtunities to have "giveaways".

Marner is a much better defender than matthews lmao.

I would jump all over that Nylander trade but I doubt the feeling is mutual with canes fans

Honestly, the only thing on Toronto I would trade Makar for is Matthews + Rielly with some retention. That's it. And Leafs fans would probably say I'm crazy, but take it or leave it.

Leave it... Leafs wouldn't do Matthews for Makar 1 for 1

Then why can't Hughes regain possession of the puck just as much as he loses it if it happens all the time?

On a per game basis, Hughes and Matthews have similar numbers, yet you refuse to believe that bc Hughes' giveaway to takeaway ratio is way worse than Matthews

Matthews does that too, except better than Hughes...

Marner is better on the PK then Matthews... Not a better complete defensemen IMO

Yeah I can because Makar is that special, he is what makes the dcorp all that. I mean he set the NHL record for fastest to 250 pts quicker than Bobby freaking Orr, nobody in the NHL does what he does, on the blue line, in transition, to the minutes he absolutely dominates. I love Toews, and believe in Byram but I would trade both of them before I traded Makar.

You do realize how special Matthews is, right? 6th in GPG of all time, two time top 15 Selke candidate before he played PK... Revolutionizes how players shoot... Elite at puck recoveries etc.


Makar would be a fantastic upgrade on that Leafs blue line and I would argue he is one of the greatest defensemen of all time already... But not at the expense of Matthews