I wonder how many times this exact trade will be proposed. Are we going for a world record here?

yes we are

Dubas needs to see it

Flip the second rounder to the other side, then it’s solid

So he can see what not to do? Pesce is a great defensive defenceman, which isn't worth close to an offensive force that is Nylander.

These are not remotely equal players. What is Pesce? He's Chris Tanev 5 years ago. That's what you are getting.

That is an insane price to pay for a defensive defenceman.

Don’t mind me, just commenting on this thread so I can come back to it and see all the angry leafs fans

With a great contract. Contracts matter

But is it great? I would never pay Pesce more than 4 million. He's not worth more than that. Just because he's right handed and a defenceman doesn't mean he's a #1 defenceman. He isn't and he won't ever be. He's a complimentary guy, someone who's job is to help other guys be what he can't be. Put him with Rielly and Rielly is even more impressive than he already is. Slavin benefits from having Pesce but Slavin is the star.

Nylander is a star in the making his upside is massive, Pesce's is non existent. He's a defensive defenceman, that's all you're going to get and trading someone as talented as Nylander for just a defensive defenceman is a terrible idea.

Two things,

1) If anything on this site makes anyone angry, their lives are amazing and they have nothing wrong with it, because if hockey conversations make you angry there is absolutely nothing going wrong in your life. Parking tickets make me mad, this site? Who cares lol. (I am not venting at you just to be clear, I just think its really weird when people get angry over stuff that has zero impact on their lives)

2) Why would anyone get a kick out of seeing people get angry? That is far more weird than getting angry at the internet.

Just to play devil's advocate, isn't a little hypocritical to value Nylander at what he could become but write off Pesce as what he is, after 233 NHL GP? Most defenseman are just coming into their own at that point. I know a lot of scouts like to use the 300 GP milestone as a fair evaluation point for defensemen. And usually, the concern with young guys is that they can't defend...

Well let's hold the phone here, it's not like he's Hal Gill. His only full season he had 20 points which isn't non existent offensive coming from a d man. Last year he had 18 in around 60 games, so that shows an improvement. I think he's a lot like Hjalmarsson, except with his prime ahead of him, and those guys are so essential to winning clubs. He's a 5 million + guy now, with definitely 6+ million upside.

He is a better, more impactful hockey player than Nylander. He also has one of the best contracts in the NHL, and it's over a very long term. Nylander does not have a contract, and is a few days from being on the shelf for the remainder of the season.

For all the talk of Pesce being a complimentary player, Nylander is the exact same thing.

He's never had much of an offensive game. How do you expect a guy who's a defensive defenceman to somehow learn how to become a skilled two way guy when he's never shown that to begin with.

Nylander has shown he has immense talent but at times has lacked consistency. Consistency is what develops with age, Pesce is consistently great defensively and has little to nothing to show offensively.

He also has shown this season that once again he has little to offer offensively, I would put some stock into that idea if he showed any signs of it by now. He hasn't.

I certainly get it. and it isn't just leafs fans.

For months we were bombarded with posts by absolutely insane senators fans thinking they were going to get sergachev, tyler johnson, cal foote, and two first rounders for a year of erik karlsson. Literally. Reasonable people came on and said, wellll, that's a bit much for a rental, let's just pump the brakes and probably expect something more like a late first rounder, an okay roster player, and a decent prospect. Senators fans came back and said Karlsson was the best player of all time, and of course you could work something out with an extension before hand because one player in the last decade has done that so it's obviously going to happen, and that Cale Makar and their own first round pick back would be the least they would get for Karlsson. It was incredibly satisfying to see those same sens fans calling for their GMs head because of this awful trade.

As such, Leafs fans have been absurd around here lately. Nylander for Parayko plus. Nylander for Pietrangelo etc etc. Then next year even though a few months ago matthews and marner were the two best hockey players to ever live, now they're actually good but not that good so they won't be getting that much money.

Likewise, it's going to be satisfying when Nylander gets the trade value he deserves, and Marner and Matthews both break the bank. I understand the bias of being a fan, but when reasonable posters get ridiculed for expressing a reasonable check on leafs rabid fandom....satisfaction when those fans come back to earth is normal.

oh boy, prepare to get berated.

If you check out their WAR numbers, Nylander is incredibly more valuable than Pesce. Pesce doesn't win you games, he prevents you from losing some but he doesn't win you games. That's the difference between a defensive defenceman and a skilled two way player. One of those will do things that create chances for your team to take control of a game. The other just makes it harder for teams to do that to do you. Which of course is very valuable but a player that can't win you games is never as valuable as a player that can win games for you.

Carolina is a team that plays a game that makes it hard for you to score on them, and they still lose a lot. Why? Because they can't score, they need Nylander and Toronto doesn't need Pesce, sure they likely want him, I'd want him too, but I certainly wouldn't give up Nylander to get him. That's just silly.

Here is the thing that everyone it seems has forgotten. Last season the pecking order in TO was Matthews, Nylander and Marner. Marner came on strong at the end of the season and had a great playoffs which has vaulted him past Nylander but Nylander is right there talent wise. Would you trade Marner for Pesce? Of course not, that is just silly. Marner can take over a game with his skill. Pesce can't. Nylander can take a game over with his skill, Pesce can't.

MaCovoy can take a game over with his skill, Slavin can at times, Seth Jones, etc. Guys like that are players who impact the game in massive ways. Hell, even Jake Gardiner can at times take games over with his skill (He's a dumpster fire in his own zone way too often so don't take this as me saying he's amazing, he isn't). Pesce doesn't have those talents, which is why trading a high talent, fast, young player with immense upside for Pesce is a terrible move. Carolina would have to add something that could turn into a high skill top 6 winger in the future to make it fair.

But that happens with every fan base. As a Bruins fan you probably have a bias towards all your own players as well. Which is normal and understandable I try to look at players on the Leafs and take my expectations back about 10% (I am sure I'm not very good at that either lol). I still don't understand why enjoying people getting mad is a thing. I get no pleasure from others misery. But I guess I'm different than most.

I hope no one berates him for that statement, some may disagree but to berate some for having a differing opinion is just a dick move.

1. Okay, let's just mutually come to the understanding that I'm not a 4 year old who needs to be told what the difference is between a defensive defensemen and a scorer. I know, okay? got that? okay, moving on.
2. Know what happens when good teams are built to prevent scoring chances? they win. Look at the way Boston, LA, Chicago, and to a lesser extent pittsburgh got to where they were at where they had a large window of competing for cups. It was all about goal prevention. Washington spent a decade trying to run and gun and just outscore everyone...always failed. Then they focus on their own end a bit, and hey, what do you know? Defense wins. period.
3. Don't talk to me about WAR. Just don't waste our time. The second I see it up there I skip to the next sentence and think less of your opinion every time I do. I don't want to do that, I wish i could compartmentalize that and just laugh it off, but I can't. sorry.
4. offense goes on cold streaks, defense doesn't.
5. The objective of hockey is not to score goals.

Honestly I'm much more likely to think a bruins player stinks because I see them so much and know their glaring weaknesses.

Examples: Krug stinks. Seguin was never a special player, even in boston. Donato just doesn't get my juices flowing. Bjork might just be useless. My favorite though, Frank Vatrano. People around here he thought he was a superstar. holy crap he was awful.

I catch myself from time to time arguing which 3rd line winger is better between 2 third line wingers and after a little bit just hang my head in shame. "The Red Honda Civic is way better than the Blue one." "Aren't they both Honda Civics?" That is the moment I face palm myself. LOL

I always get a kick out of hear what people think of Jake Gardiner. He's either criminally underrated and a god or he's the worst player in the entire league. In reality he is an incredibly talented offensive defenceman who is really bad at getting lost watching the puck.

He's a lesser Krug. He's a third pairing guy that's going to be good on the PP.
Krug is the same, third pairing guy, just a little more compete in his own end, and a bit more offensive upside.

The WAR argument is legitimate IMO. If you can accurately quantify a player's effect on the game (it's tricky to do but WAR comes the closest), you can justify keeping a winger that might contribute +5 wins to the team versus trading him for a defensemen that contributes +2 wins... the only time it goes out the window is in the playoffs, when a team needs to have the advantage in as many matchups as possible. But still, if the Leafs decide that stacking their forwards to exploit those matchups gives them a better chance than relying on shut-down defense in their own end, that's their prerogative (and it could def work).

IF you could accurately quantify a player's effect on the game....that's the big sentence.

You can't.
You can't come anywhere close.
That's why hockey is awesome, it's subjective and quixotic. It isn't fcking baseball.

Two more days and it will be all over...