If Chicago trades Jones they are not retaining salary

The push back is that it doesn't make sense for CHI to trade Jones away. IF he asked for a trade...ok fine, but he hasn't to anyone's best knowledge. The Hawks WITH Jones should go out and get 1 more physical Veteran Dman. Without him...they need two. That's why there's so much push back. It's far less to do with trade value and more that no one thinks about what the Hawks actually need. They just throw some slop onto Capfriendly and pretend like they're doing the Hawks favors.

Well clearly that's a sticking point, so are you telling me Chicago walks away from that offer? If he's overpaid by that amount anyway, they'll always be paying that amount more than they otherwise would have had the signed him for cheaper.

Thing is, that amount he's overpaid by will increase as time goes by, while the potential return decreases. People get way to caught up in this - if the return compensates you for the retention then there's little reason to believe it will become a backbreaker down the road. It's less than 2% of your cap, if you can't plan for that on a rebuilding team while a ton of high value contracts then you shouldn't be a GM.

This offer gives you all the reason you need to trade him. Now you have an additional top 10 pick to grab a future top pair D, as well as the cap to add the two defensemen you're after on top of that. Plus robertson, plus liljegren...

Jones accepted a trade to Chicago because he wanted to compete for a cup in his prime. I have no doubts he'd be a cmgood soldier in the media, but no professional athlete in his position would be pleased by it.

This is where you're wrong, I'm thinking about exactly what would benefit the hawks with where they're at as a team, which should be all about maximizing your cap and assets to align with their cup window. That window is years away, and that is the point.

I simply disagree with you and your approach and still curious if you even know what the Hawks need. I read your words, but the plan is poorly thought out. The Hawks have Vlasic, KK, and one of Del Mastro/Kaiser/Allan/Phillips on the left. Aka two 2nd year guys and a guaranteed rookie. Do you really want to pair those left D with more rookies? We want to develop our prospects right. Vlasic and Jones had good chemistry. Keep that going! KK/Murphy didn't get the whole season together due to injury, but keep KK with a consistent defrnse 1st physical veteran. Same with the 3rd pair. Go OVER PAY for Demelo/Tanev/Pesce/or heck Chatfield. Don't tear the D apart.

Jones was very honest in his exit interview. He wants to win, but even more...he just wants guys to play the TEAM game. He's tired of teammates on 1 year deals playing for their next contract vs the team plan.

Just like the Hawks previous cup run...they went out and overpaid for Brian Campbell because guys like Keith/Seabrook needed time to. develop. The Hawks have been down this road and Jones is exactly what they need. I'd like to have one more to be honest...just not Caleb

The top 10 pick definitely makes it a whole lot more interesting. I'll give you that.

At this point in time the Hawks need just about everything as they're in year 2 of the most extreme scorched earth rebuild the league has ever seen. Trading Jones does not mean you need to pair them with rookies at all, only that you'd have more cap and assets to bring in players that better fit the window when you're ready to be competitive.

Before we get too far down this road, how long do you think it will be before the Hawks are ready to compete for a cup? Genuine question.

Not year 2, year 3 and some would argue year 4

Good question and it's fair and I promise I will directly answer it. Before that I want to make sure we both understand that how long something takes is a different question than doing something right vs wrong. So regardless of 1 - 15 years... the time it takes is irrelevant if we're going to mess stuff up or not try to develop those picks with purpose into NHLers.

I think Kyle Davidson's own words speak best. It's not an immediate Cup Contender situation. We want to get better next year. We need to get to the end of the season with more hope of making the playoffs than we had last year. We need more meaningful games at the end of the season.

Also, another Kyle Davidson quote from a previous TDL talking about Strome/Kubalik/DeHaan and why they were not traded away for futures...if our prices weren't meet, then we clearly thought more of these players than other teams did. That's why they're still on this team. We value them more.

I bring those two up because A.) Were developing our prospects with intent. Not just throwing players around for late 1sts. B.) ANYONE trading for Jones HAS to view him as a 1st pair RD that'll play 25 ATOI against opponents top lines. So you pay our price...or he just means more to us.

The rebuild will take 2-3 more year ls before playoff caliber. 4-5 more before hopes of a deep run.

Sometimes it's not the amount of a retention that the issue, it's the number of spots available. What happens if TOR decides to buy out Jones? Look at ARI/UTA... They retained a small piece of OEL when trading him to VAN, and then when VAN bought him out, ARI/UTA lost a retention spot for a LONG TIME. Retention spots are important to a rebuilding team.

Second, Lilypad and Robertson don't move the needle much for me. Both are too small for their positions, IMO, and not enough there to make a long-term difference on the Hawks. I suspect the Hawks will soon have better options (their own prospects) trickling up into the NHL.

So, as far as your proposed trade... Take out the retention and drop Lilypad and Robertson - and, most importantly, if Eiserman is there at #8 - then I'd have some interest as a way to get Eiserman. Otherwise, we'll keep Jones. He's important to the Hawks right now, and to the Hawks going forward for a number of years, as they continue the rebuild.

I'm in the minority but I think Jones' contract is going to be a big burden down the road and if I were CHI I'd be looking carefully at chances to move him before he becomes a liability on the ice as well as the cap.

He's overpaid for what he contributes but he's a contributor. In 2-3 years he might not be able to contribue anything near that cap hit.

I don't really disagree with your premise, I just have the feeling you're misunderstanding me. I'm not suggesting you just fill the roster with rookies and throw them to the wolves, this would just be one of many transactions to complete the lineup.

I actually think what you're doing with the forward group is the perfect example, getting what you can for guys like Kane, Hagel, Debrincat, etc., and using that cap to bring in guys like foligno and (in theory) Corey Perry who may be past their primes, but have a wealth of experience to share with a rebuilding team.

The only issue with Jones filling that role is that it will likely extend past his prime years, with his hefty contract potentially becoming an obstacle when you're ready to compete.

I'll compare your current situation to that of arguably the greatest dynasty in the modern Era (all respect to the hawks), because I think the parallels are pretty incredible. In 2008 the lightning drafted Stamkos 1st overall and signed 30 year old dan boyle to an 8 x 6.66 mil contract, a pretty high cap for one of the leagues best defensemen at the time. They were probably a bit further ahead at the time with guys like St. Louis and Lecavalier still in the mix, but regardless, they end up trading boyle for futures only one year into his deal.

The current iteration of the lightning made their first deep run in 2015, losing in the cup final, year 6 of Hedman and year 7 of Stamkos. The year prior they had lost in round 1, after missing the playoffs in each of the 2 years before that. By this time boyle was 36, overpaid and declining, 2 years away from retirement.

They'd lose in the conference finals the next year, then miss the playoffs due to injuries the year after. By this time they had traded away the old order, like Ben bishop, St. Louis, Lecavalier and boyle. After missing the playoffs they completed two shrewd moves to bring in McDonagh and Sergachev (and Miller), to balance out some of the old vets like Girardi and brewer.

That year they go to the conference final again, backstopped by their new phenom vasilevskiy, who came to them out of the dan boyle trade tree. They'd infamously get swept to the jackets in round 1 of the next year before going on to win 2 Stanley cups in a row in 3 cup finals appearances.

There were no bad contracts on the team because those players were traded when their value was still solid, opening up cap and bringing in assets to acquire the likes of sergachev and mcdonagh, rather than having to spend what assets they had to clear space with cap dumps or overpay for retention (a la the leafs under dubas).

Again, the parallels here are hard to deny. You got your generational goalscoring center 10A last year, and in my opinion should look to add your franchise defenseman at 2nd overall this year, just as lightning did. I also think you should capitalize on Jones value while it's at its highest, continuing to build the pipelines while being cautious to reserve that future cap for your incredible core, bringing in short term vets like foligno (TJ Brodie? Erik Johnson?) To guide the ship along the way.

Doing all that while bringing in solid young players who can grow with your core, and having the chance to add someone like Tij Iginla at 8? Seems like a no brainer to me honestly, also allowing Jones to compete for a cup in his prime (if you love something, let it go).

I think it will take a good while, but eventually there's so much talent and assets on that hawks team that a cup seems inevitable, so long as you maximize that cap when your window opens. You won't have a lack of pieces to spend it on for sure.

BTW, I'm a huge bears fan as well, what a time to be a sports fan in the city of Chicago!

Deleted not because it wasn't a good and thoughtful read...it was! Just keeping it shorter.

I appreciate the conversation and I can't tell you that you're wrong in any of it. I may not share the same opinion or have the same view on a few of the analogies you've used, but that's just an opinion not a fact. I don't think the Hawks are in the same selling period right now as they were with Debrincat/Dach/Hagel/etc... We already have Bedard. We have the #2, We're likely to be a very good pick next year as well. The Hawks are in the Prospect Development period. I've posted a few teams on Capfriendly and I feel (it's an opinion...not a fact) that it's very much in line with what Kyle Davidson has been saying. We need to get better and play more meaningful hockey in March/April. As a quick sidenote...KD's been extremely transparent. I'd argue too transparent because at some point extreme transparency can be used against you in terms of trades, but I guess my point in bringing this up is because he's not lying to us. He's does a very good job at setting fan's expectations. He's had answers as to why he didn't trade Strome/DeHaan/Kubalik/etc... away which MANY Hawks fans jumped on him for not maximizing their trade value. His response was that I guess they mean more to the Hawks than to other teams...so we kept them. It wasn't about getting a 3rd or 4th round pick. A lot of Hawks fans not only saw that as not collecting futures...whatever they may be, but also that isn't tanking either! He just traded Hagel away, but you kept pending UFA Dylan Strome? If were "selling" Seth Jones...then were letting the other team set his value and that's not how Kyle Davidson has been a GM. I can promise you that Kyle Davidson believes Seth Jones value to be FAR higher than what you've outlined above, BUT to another team maybe it isn't? IDK? But for us, he's extremely valuable. But that's because we're past the selling stage. And Kyle Davidson has said that too! We're in the prospect development stage and we need 1 more physical RD...if we're trading away Jones we're really hurting the development of our LD youngsters. It would take a MAMMOTH trade (more than Hagel. MUCH more) to get Kyle Davidson to think about potentially derailing the development of our prospects. Is Jones overpaid. Yeah, he's not a $9.5M player, but it's not THAT far off and I'm very happy he's still a Hawk. He's a no BS kind of guy and I respect his exit interview this year.


As far as the comps to Tampa...I guess I'd just say that we can't really do things exactly the same. If we're trying to force our situation to be like anyone else's...are we truly looking at ourselves correctly? Are you thinking Levshunov is Victor Hedman or Gajan/Commesso is Valievsky? Where's our Kucherov? It's impossible to know how any of these prospects will turn out. I don't care as much about maximizing each player's "value" in a trade (And neither does Kyle Davidson I might add...he's said that almost literally) as much as I personally care about developing the players. There are ways around situations like NMCs OR maybe Kyle Davidson learned from Stan Bowman's mistakes and won't resign Brent Seabrook. As much as I'm a big fan of his and met him a few times...very nice guy. It probably wasn't the right move to sign your 31 year old Dman to an 8 year nearly $7M per year contract. We'll be ok to have 1 contract that's higher than it should be. We're probably not ok if our prospects don't develop well. I want Vlasic and Seth Jones to be paired together for the next 6 years. I seriously do. Vlasic will be 27 at that point. If they continue to develop their chemistry, they'll be fine. Maybe they aren't the top line anymore? OK, I'm good with that too.

What a great thread! Thanks, All, for your contributions. This exchange is one of the main reasons I read CapFriendly.

And, exo, shorter IS better. It's not easy, though... To get your ideas across succinctly makes them more powerful. Good writing is re-writing. It takes time and energy, but worth it as it makes more of an impact on the reader.

Reminds me of what E.B. White said once at the end of a letter to a friend... "Please forgive me for the length of this letter. I would have written a shorter one, but I didn't have the time."

March 1st 2022 is when the interim tag was removed from KD, the rebuild was announced, and the first moves began a few days later at the deadline. We have completed two years of the rebuild and are currently in year 3. There should not be any debate about that.

An awful 21-22 season due to Stan Bowmans dumb decisions, Jeremy Collitons poor coaching, and them leaving/being fired from CHI does not constitute the beginning of the rebuild. That stacked roster still had almost an entire season to try and turn things around.

So, to be precise, we are exactly 2 years 2 months and 19 days into the rebuild. That is just a fact. It isn't a matter of opinion.



It is not conducive to a successful rebuild to constantly be creating huge holes in the roster. It also makes it far less likely that CHI can draw other players in through free agency. When they see we are still just tearing down and have no real help or mentorship for the young players and that it is likely to continue being miserable for the players, they will say "Nah I am not signing there", unless we are signing huge contracts that might make it more palatable for them. In which case, we might as well just keep Jones, because he is that huge contract that keeps him here and provides stability and mentorship.

Even if CHI wanted to address that RD spot, CHI should not pick Levshunov at 2nd overall, and he will not be available at 8th overall, the only option I could see there is Yakemchuk or another forward. Parekh looks like he will be a huge liability at the pro level, and is a risky pick and won't be ready for years either. KD has openly stated he is not worried about handedness, though. So there are other options, but, again, none of them will be ready for years. So, it would take some serious creativity and persuasiveness to free agents, to make this not be a total mess that prolongs the rebuild even further.

KD has also openly stated that the tear down is over. Also, TOR would need to ACTUALLY get a hold of that pick first, and then Jones would need to be ok with a trade, let alone a trade to TOR, which I am not sure he would be interested in.

So, As I said yesterday, an 8th overall pick definitely makes it more interesting, but there are so many unknown variables and obstacles to making something like this work.

Also, If I thought Levshunov were a franchise RD, I would be advocating for CHI to take him. But I watched nearly all of his games this season and I am not a fan. I think the only reason he is in the top of this draft is because of the lack of high end talent in this draft. I also think there are a couple forwards, Demidov and Lindstrom, who are being seriously underrated in the conversations about this draft, because there are some journalists/pundits/scouts/etc. who are way too hooked on the narrative of a "defense heavy draft", which I personally don't believe is true after watching all of these players for myself. I would honestly take guys like Demidov, Lindstrom, Iginla, Sennecke, Catton, etc. over most of these defensemen. In an average draft without the D heavy narrative, Levshunov would go in the 8-15 range. Which means that if we want someone like him, we can get them next year or the year after or whenever, really.

I would just as soon sign a Tanev and/or Montour, or whoever, for 3 to 5 years and wait until the roster starts to take shape more and a better opportunity falls in our lap. Maybe the Isles go into a rebuild at some point and we can overpay for a Dobson, or another team is ready to give up on someone, CHI trades for them and they all of a sudden pop off and we get a steal. Franchise defensemen don't always have to come out of the top of the draft, either. Also, CHI's "franchise defenseman" doesn't need to be a right shot. You don't even necessarily need a "franchise defenseman" to be a contender and win cups. I'd almost rather have a well balanced meat and potatoes D-core with a bit of offensive touch, and not get distracted by "finding our Makar/Fox/Hedman/Chara/etc.", because you cannot force that or depend on that happening, at all. It's too rare.

Not completely true as it is because of the 21/22 season, we landed Nazar and Korchinski so it's easily objective to say it started then regardless of when the front office came to grips with it.

We landed them in the 2022 draft, which was two years ago, because we traded established players in the beginning of the tear down. So, again, to be precise, KD had the interim tag removed on March 1st 2022 and announced the rebuild and then sold Hagel at the deadline, which means we are 2 years 2months and 19 days into the rebuild.

Right, which we got into that position of the #7 of the 2022 draft from the results of the 2021/2022 season....that team was not built to win.

We got into that position because we traded DeBrincat for OTT's 7th overall pick. And, Bowman certainly thought that team was built to win going into the season. On paper, it was a team that should've won a lot of games, but on the ice, the results weren't there.

I totally forgot. So in the 2022 draft, we got Korch from OTT, Nazar from MTL, and Rinzel from TOR. What did the hawks do with their own 2022 1st?

That went to CBJ in the Jones trade. And, to be fair, it was one pick before Korch. haha

Ah that's right. So Bowman traded that away, and KD knew it was obvious this team needed to be torn down to the studs with no 1st rounders because of the jones blunder. Therefore we made trades with Ottawa, Montreal and Toronto and got back 3 first round picks as a result. Wow, imagine if we had that #6 pick as well...grrrr

Right? Although, I wonder if he would've kept DeBrincat if we already had a top 10 pick. But yeah, the 6th and 7th pick would've been awesome. haha

That's true, but the bigger issue on Debrincat coming out of the rumor mill in Chicago, was even at that time, he told Chicago he won't sign an extension. Chicago was smart knowing that, and while everyone flamed Chicago for the trade, Ottawa found out the hard way and ending up loosing big in the end on that deal. Lots of rumors circling that Cat wanted to go to detroit ultimately and that he would never sign an extension anywhere.